While I wait for launch I've been pondering over many things including effective group compositions for two situations: Above world named hunting and dungeon camping.
Named hunting:
I see this situation as open world where tight pulling corridors isn't as big of a problem, but the group is seeking strong named for sweet loot.
Tank: Warrior - for best single target tank against tough target
Healer: Cleric - for best single target heals to keep that tank up
DPS: Ranger - assuming they can track like in EQ to assist hunting down named targets
DPS: Wizard - teleportation to open up multiple zones for group easy access seeking named targets
Utility: Enchanter - for CC if there is multi-target pulls and the mana boosting capabilities if the named fight is a bit of a marathon.
6th: Flex - For optimization I think this could go many ways, Monk for easier pulling, Shaman for slows and buffs, Druid for their open world in nature capabilities. Also can't go wrong with another dps.
Dungeon Crawl/Camp
This situation is area of more caution and precision. I see high value in extra CC and multiple party members with resurrect in case a healer is killed. Keeping group together is important.
Double Tank: Warrior or Direlord - Warrior for raw damage mitigation or Direlord for their self healing which couples well with a shaman heal over time abilities.
Other Tank: Paladin - a tank that has rez and some healing gives the team more flexibility
Healer: Shaman - buffs that seem to help physical dps classes more, this group is more melee centric.
DPS: Rogue - if group is mobile they can scout, also they have a CC. Trap disarming, locked door opening. All that good stuff.
DPS: Monk - feign death is amazing for pulling and can work as off-tank if tank along with paladin isn't around.
Utility: Enchanter or bard - CC and mana crack.
Was just some thoughts on group composition, what do you all think? What's your dream team party? I'm looking to find some time to try and watch summoner and druid game play vids to get better idea of their strengths and how they fit into a group. I'm also excited to find out more about the bard and hopefully if progress goes well learn about necromancer. Necromancer and summoner have always seemed to be strong in solo play in past mmorpg's. I wonder how they will do in a group and soloing in Pantheon.
Gritaz,
Those are some good thoughts. It's hard for me to say what the best group composition will be at this point since we haven't seen exactly how they'll function just yet. I think some of the streams that come out during this PA4 session will show us a little bit more about each one of them. They're just now starting to fine tune all the classes and I think that'll give us a little more insight into what we'll be working with. There will definitely have to be some thought put into group composition in this game though. I'm happy that we are going back to that sort of game though since different encounters may require different combinations to do them efficiently. I'm pretty excited about them coming out with an MMO that actually requires you to think and have discussions about this type of thing.
Rangers will be able to track. And we have a guy that isn't listed yet that will be playing a Paladin.
Has anybody ran into information about when PA4 and Alpha is starting? I can't wait to jump into alpha and dabble with all these classes, especially wizard and shaman.
I think PA4 is starting pretty soon. I’m think Alpha will be first part of next year. I was hoping by the end of the year but doesn’t look like it at this point.
I think this game will make most situations doable with any combination of Tank/healer/3dps/CC. However, I do agree that to truly be efficient there will be specific makeups that will be the "best" depending on the exact encounter-- Mob types/resistances/mechanics ect that will lend themselves nicely to specific class combinations.
From what I've seen so far and read in discussions from the developers, group composition will necessarily need to change depending upon the situation. Some classes are just going to be better in some circumstances than another.
If we look at the Shaman and Enchanter, typically support/utility classes, the Shaman's buffs/debuffs makes it a solid force multiplier for melee heavy groups. while the Enchanter does the same for caster heavy groups. Shaman has melee haste while Enchanter has spell haste.
As for tanks, word is that the DireLord has more magic(spell) mitigation while the Warrior has more physical(melee) mitigation. No idea how the Paladin fits in. But in the streams, none of the tanks appear to be any better or worse than another. It remains to be seen just how the various class abilities will create stronger synergies with some classes over those of another. Like the DireLord having a stronger synergy with the Shaman while the Warrior is more attuned to the Cleric.
As for DPS, I will bet money that melee DPS will be far more desirable than caster DPS. Melee, naturally having more HP, better armor and less reliant on stamina than casters are on Mana. A wizard with zero mana has zero DPS. A melee, without stamina still has auto-attack...which is not zero DPS.
So I've had 2 groups going so far: Shaman, DireLord, Enchanter, Ranger, Monk, Wizard then Shaman, Druid, Enchanter, Warrior, Summoner, Wizard.
Early levels Casters are incredibly weak. No spell, small manapools, no hitpoints. Melee, by contrast suffer literally no downsides for being low levels. What takes a melee 10 seconds to kill solo will take a caster 45 seconds to kill and after which the caster will be out of mana while the melee just runs off to kill another NPC.
From level 1-15, Melee DPS far outpaces Caster DPS by a huge margin.
From levels 16-20, Caster DPS increase at a faster pace than Melee though Melee still hold an advantage.
From levels 21-26, Caster DPS is now on-par with Melee with Crits pushing them over the edge.
The downside for casters is the limited manapools. A caster with no mana gives no DPS. Melee do not have any such limitation. Melee just keep on doing DPS..endlessly.
My take on group composition is this: First and foremost, before anything else, you want an Enchanter. Crowd control is absolutely critical, you cannot do much without it. While you might say "get a Monk to FD split", the effectiveness of the Enchanter is greater than that of the Monk because of the ancillary benefits of the Enchanter: Mana Regen, Spell Haste, Mana Drain/Transfer among other things.
Next, you want 2 Priests, either a Cleric+Druid or Shaman+Druid combination. The Druid is the key to the the best healing because it has +healing buffs, and HP regen. The Druid makes the other priest heal 20% more effectively, increasing the level of what content you can face or allowing you to keep up a pace far longer than if you had just 1 healer.
And of course you need tank and, right now, the DireLord is the better choice. Its main abilities increase all healing effects placed on the DireLord. You take the 20% healing effectiveness of the Druid plus the Torrential Vein line of the DireLord that further amplifies healing effects by 25% means whatever heal cast on the DireLord now lands 45% stronger.
As for DPS, if you want more consistent DPS from a class with the highest chance of survival, you want a Ranger and Rogue first or, if you can't get either of those, get a Monk. As I mentioned above, Casters run out of mana and without mana they contribute nothing. Melee, so long as they are alive, will just keep applying consistent DPS.
One of the things we will probably want to do is find a way to get all our classes into the group mix as equally as possible (given combat mechanics). So even though low level casters are weak (just like in EQ) we want to carry them so that when they come into their own they are ready as far as gear and spells and experience.
At about the 2 week mark of EQ live my Cleric got picked up by a group of melee who had realized while I couldn't heal a whole lot then, I would be able to later. It was a good call. Pretty soon they found they couldn't progress without the healing. We also picked up an Enchanter and a Monk as we moved into more difficult content.
I can't wait to get into the game and crush everything with my wizard pew pew pew!
Yep we’ll kick serious ass together. This guild is going to rock in Terminus!
I like the direction that Pantheon is taking wrt multiple classes being able to perform multiple roles. The benefit of this approach is to allow group composition to be fairly flexible. While I'm sure there will be some ideal classes for specific dungeons/raids, I'm hopeful that most groups can perform well as long as they have the basics covered (i.e. tank/healing/dps/cc).
Malla brought up a great point ... it will be important to ensure all guildies are leveling up together even if their class is underpowered at certain ranges. Most likely, we'll want all classes available to us when we raid.
I'm not sure how much overlap in roles there will be. I know my Enchanter can't tank, or heal, and the buffs are very specific and not repeated in other classes. Even if the Bard (when introduced) can lull/mez, and based on VR comments that isn't a given, it will probably be same as in EQ. Once I got blanket mez and boggle, the Bard had much better songs to concentrate on (as far as helping group/raid) than crowd control. My debuffs have a little overlap, just like they did in EQ. Brad has said in interviews many times he wants group class dependencies to be very strong, but also dependent on environment/climate effects and certain encounter mechanics.
I believe every class will have specific skills that will make them desired in specific areas of the world. Overall, however, groups should be able to survive and even thrive with numerous different class compositions provided the basics are covered (tank, healer, CC, and dps). That was the point I was trying to make.
If I had to pick one class that will be most crucial for efficiently handling group content, it would be enchanter for the reasons you stated (especially mezzing). Just watching the streams, it is evident that good CC is a big factor in the survivability of groups.
Whats going to be fun is seeing how the role game play emerges. I've said before I knew the Monk would be a prime puller in EQ by the time I was level 20 in vanilla. It was just obvious even if Brad says they never envisioned that role happening. So I know the chanter will be the best all around cc and that root and slow will help amplify those abilities when other classes play a role. The Warrior will be the best tank due to mitigation and taunt. The Wizard *should* be the highest dps caster, but so far I don't know if its true in Pantheon. The Rogue *should* be the highest dps melee (when backstabbing) and needs a taunting tank to keep that dps up. But like in EQ, some times you just don't need the prime class for a role to get small scale stuff done, and sometimes you do.